im in
im in such a weird place
im in this kinda post uni post girlfriend post charismatic pahse where im just waiting ntil life is normal again.
tried praying out loud with this guy, and wa sjust like this is so surreal didnt really feel like i was talking to god although believed i was.
same with heaven, been reading the narnia chronicals (more commonly known as the chronicals of narnia) theres alot of heaven alogory, especiall in the last battle (the final book) and i was thinking about for so long how much hope i have had in heaven and just couldnt actualise it in the way i did prior.
didnt hold the same tangiable hope as it did. as if lewis and all just hold heaven as this magical place, which to some extent we can actulise on earth, but really look foward to post death. i mean there no way there is no life after death and i dig heaven. DIG IT. But it just isnt the same strong belief as it was
so there it is fellas and females.
prayer/heaven/ and beeing in between life pahses? what do u have to say
to john rob scriv the 2 tims and all the other regular blog users-sorry for the recent absenteeism
posted by justyn @ 3:21 PM
21 Comments:
If I am the Jon you were referring to then you spelt my name wrong. But then I've probably spend your name wrong many times too (Justin, Justyn and Justine).
The chronicles of narnia are great (the ones I've read are anyway). Hope in heaven has never been a massive part of my spiritualty though, even before I lost my faith.
I still struggle with prayer. Although, interestingly, I find prayer with others so much easier than prayer on my own. I find in between phases in life to some of my most reflective. It gives me a chance to sit down, rethink my life, and dream about the future.
Hope you are having fun.
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My probably very flawed and cynical view is that its all about disillusionment and unsettledness. You're at school from the moment you can think (or even before) and then when you leave you know you're going to uni and then after uni... you have to deal with the real world. I reckon thats why so many people get married as soon as they leave, or at least move in together- makes it less scarey if you have someone else to face it with. Family gives you the structure and ties and certainties you lose when you start living your own life rather than following this already written pattern. Jon's right, in-between phases are all about reflection, and if youve been not dealing with things for a while, like your faith, then relfection can be running into a wall of doubt and issues that you never realised were so big cos youve been putting off looking at them for so long. It's that whole 'one day' thing- one day ill figure out this God thing and address the problems I have with Christianity, one day ill get married, one day ill have a job, one day ill be out of school and living how I choose. And suddenly one day is now and things arent working out how you thought or and you have to deal with the reality of trying to make it happen. It's hard and i personally am going to avoid taking responsibility for my life for as long as possible.
Hmmm, again I'm touched that I made the list but this is a toughie. It makes me think how our life experiences, in the long run, end up effecting our theology. Relationships, movements (geographically not of the stomach), adventures we embark on, jobs, they all end up effecting who God is for us. I used to love praying with other people, all nice and out loud, but I struggle with it now coz I hate the feeling that I'm putting on a show! One thing that I do find awesome and really faith building is to go where nobody can hear me get a cup of tea and have a chat with God! Try it. Last time Jesus said he'd bring the biscuits and guess what - he forgot!
cat and oakes i like it.
cat i thinbk u were talkin as much about ur own year as u were commenttaing on mine-but i thibnk ur right. especially when ur a bit of a dreamer and suddenly the relaity isnt the future u had though it would be. so its all back to dremaing a up a new plan.
dig the tea idea tim-
yeah praying for show is a toughy. alhtougn i often wanna pray in groups but dont have the balls as it then becomes wierd.
wish i could talk/pray with others more naturally. dont like the big difference between cha6 and prayer as essentially there the same. its just were talking to the divine
hmmmm...interesting thoughts.
I'm pretty similar to Jon M with the whole heaven thing. being of practical methodist constitution I never really held any kind of idea of heaven, so the fact that I have no idea whether heaven even exists now doesnt bother me that much. I always liked the idea of heaven being brought to earth just in little pockets when people are truly christlike with no other motives than to love that other person. (so heaven has a lot to do with community)
I always thought I'd be bored by heaven, I guess I pictured it as like an eternal church service.
I'm kind of happy with the idea that there is nothing after we die. that we have this period after death where we reconcile all that we have done on earth (hopefully meeting God in some way) then closure. having that thought makes me work even more hard to bring heaven to earth, because thats all we have. but I realise that for some that would make them hope-less and despondent.
I'd love to be proved wrong though.
Prayer is a tough one. still really just sending out 'hopes' into the universe and hoping that they may touch heaven. even if they dont they still help, so does it really matter if God doesnt hear them? I dont know. I cannot pray with other people, even when I was a christian I felt like a right twonk. I kind of like liturgy though.
Hi Justyn. Long time no see. I'm in a similar phase, although hiding in a 9-5 and lots of out of hours activity a bit. I figure if you bury all of your emotional struggles so deep that no-one, not even yousrself, can ever find them, then it will all turn out ok in the end. I've been struggling with prayer for a long time, but its getting much better recently
Oh, and about Heaven...Interesting thoughts. I guess I think that if there isn't one, then any sort of attempt to improve anybody's life is a bit pointless really. Unless you value giving somebody a comfortable death, and a comfortable life, but it all just seems like a shot in the dark if the ultimate problem of death still hangs over us. Why do anything to prolong life? We're just a weird species fighting a losing battle, and anything we ever do surrenders to the inevitable decay of time. Why bother?
I used to hate the idea of heaven, because I viewed it as a human living in this world (which I guess most of you have done too!). We live in a world where everything runs down (what is the name of that theory? Is it Newton or Einsteins 3rd law- I'm not sure). that is why we see decay, and over time, energy leaves all things. I heard Greg Boyd talk a bit about this, and it got me thinking- what if in heaven that law is reversed?
The only way that we can understand time on this earth is by understanding that over time, things decay. But if, when we get to heaven, that is reversed, then eternity becomes far less of a worry, because it will keep getting better. There is also a picture in Revelation of the throne of God being at the centre of heaven, ajnd a river running to it. I reckon that the throne of God would have to be the highest point in heaven, and I like the idea the this river actually runs UP to it- demonstrating that in heaven all things don't run down, they run up!
I'm having a tough time with prayer too. I really want to pray more, and pray earnestly, but find it hard because I don't know what it does. But I don't think I have to understand totally how something works before I do it. So I'm gonna keep trying to get better at it.
just a quick note - i've never really thought much about heaven. well actually i think i did a little bit in the past, but that was more focused on how i would feel if i came face to face with jesus. it doesn't seem all that important to me, heaven. controversial?!
also, i've never really felt comfortable praying with other people. think the only person i would even bother with it now is Gaz. other wise i just try to find the ways that i communicate best with God. at the moment that's through writing letters to him. weird i know, but it works for me.
off to the Gaza Strip tomorrow. fun!!
andy will u be in the gaza strip in febuary because my casnt wnats to go out and get involved in work out there. hes into kinda stuff u do
well, well, well...
bloody hell.
i would like to question joel. from the way you are expressing yourself it looks like you only 'believe' to solve the worry of death?!?
death is a bastard, but one i think we can beat without heaven. after all many already do.
at present i like the idea that my body will go back into the ground i came from. cycle of life. my spirit? well maybe its left in the ground, maybe i meet my designer, maybe i don't have one?
does this issue really dictate what we do on this earth?
are we that selfish? maybe we are, thats why need these beliefs. justyn would agree. bothers me this.
i'll tell you why. although i think beliefs strongly affect us in all these different ways, i dont think thats it. my dad doesn't believe in any of this stuff and yet he's not a selfish man...now dont get biblical on me (he is selfish cos he's not living for God or following his will) cos i dont believe in that bull. lets try and stick with what we know. look at how things around us affect us, and how we affect them. start there and then look beyond.
cos honestly i finding out what fulfillment means without the hope of heaven and the guilt of church.
cos otherwise jus you'll be there forever looking 'out' and tripping over the 'now'.
Jon, all beliefs require axioms that are accepted blindly without criticism. To just 'stick with what we know' is to absolutise the modern scientific worldview, creating a distinction between what can be known through science (facts) and everything else (values). And as we know, the postmodern critique has devestated this way of looking at the world.
my point was to having a clear starting point. start with what we know; see, touch hear, smell...language. then from that platform look beyond (knowing all thoughts are shaped by language)
in my personal 'journey' (gay word) has helped me a lot to work things out this way. it has encouraged genuine belief. led me to leave behind any christian bull fed to me, work out whats what (as far as i can).
i now look for genuine community and beilf more than ever. guilt f-ing free!
But our senses are often unreliable, and language continually lets us down.
We may prefer to begin from an empirical starting point, but it makes our position no less open to criticism than those who begin with metaphysics.
i agree jon. but it doesnt seem to be getting justyn anywhere. maybe he needs to try something else, then go back to it. breaks are always good.
If you want to start from your senses to build up a picture of the world and who you are, you'll have to manage something that about 300 years of deeply considered philosophy couldn't manage. It didn't start complicated, but became hopelessly complex and eventually collapsed into irresolvable confusion. The philosophers who know the backlog of material don't even try any more, you can read the papers where they explain why not. (A good person to read is Hilary Putnam, head of Philosophy at Harvard and a leading authority. He explains why they only really interest themselves in 'smaller' questions these days.)
I just don't think you can figure out what you are, or what your world is.
As for the heaven thing, I don't believe in order to solve the death problem, but I do think if you don't believe in a personal God or an after-life it makes any ideals or values inconsistent. That's what my 'why bother' comments were all about.
Jon, I wouldn't say your dad is selfish, I met him and he seemed like a really nice guy. If he doesn't believe in God though, I would just say he doesn't have a feasible basis for the care and concern he feels towards people. Its not that I'm saying people who don't believe in God are not allowed to have feelings or care about people, I just think they'll never understand why they care or have those feelings, if they really investigate them. There's no real explanation of why their values have any value, or even exist, without a personal God.
now you've brought it back to philosophy. now i want to go back to basics. most of philosophy isnt acessible. so lets start with design. lets look at what we know about it, how we can interact with it - create and destroy it.
lets focus on our socialbilty. understand we live better in groups. those are the kind of creatures we are.
lets understand that language is at the heart of all of this. how we understand everything is formed by language.
with that we can begin to discern truth. we now know our nature and the nature of our understanding.
from this platform we can look beyond this world, look to a deeper faith and understanding. this may or may not include god.
i think you would agree with all the above? sounds ok?
my dad. no god for him. yet there's a lot of love there. are you suggesting love only comes from god? he would say his ideas of love, etc. come from society, his up-bringing, etc. more specifically language being at the heart of that. regardless of your beliefs.
and i dont really see how you could disagree with that joel?
if your looking at the moral arguement for a personal god, you need to remember that morals change from christian to christian, family to family, church to church, society to society, nation to nation....
we decide morals on a very local level. i decide, me and my family decides, my nation decides, our continent decides....there is no one moral code. this agruement falls apart.
what exactly are you saying, why do you think a personal god is required? why do values become void without them? i have plenty of values but no personal god, so you must be wrong.
mate i think were to selfish to jusde our own values.
it means nothing to think your a moral person, as most people believe themselves to be so.
Except ironically christians, who often start form the prmise that they are selfish
i would sya johns dad is selfish, as is mine and myself and jon. Ok time for a new post down this road.
scrive lets talk phone wise!
Blimey, I missed a well deep post. I'll make a comment on the new one though...
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